2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

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Jeff Rice
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2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 08 Oct 2018, 17:02

OK.. I'm committing myself to this challenge for 2019.
Will be building a Studebaker engine to compete in 2019.
Already have some parts lined up.
Will be setting up the organization, and getting the details worked out shortly.
Will be looking for some sponsors, some parts sponsors, and some help.
More to come. Just wanted to get the new thread started....


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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 09 Oct 2018, 10:01

OK...
Since this is THE place for Studebaker Performance.... Let's cut to the chase.
I try to follow the adage "Too many chef's spoil the broth"....
But..... The brainpower here is rampant, so why not use it.
I also follow the adage that leadership is important in a project, so I reserve the right to choose the ingredients.
This will not be a consensus build. But all input will be carefully considered.

The Engine Master's rulebook will be strictly adhered to.
Idea's not in the rule book will be considered and the Engine Master's rules people will be consulted (in writing).
The rulebook for the 2019 Engine Master's Challenge have not been released yet.
We have been promised a firm rulebook release just before the PRI show in Indianapolis.

So it is quality idea's that this effort will be seeking.
Looking for the best combination to get the best result with a Studebaker V8 engine.
The following post's will add more info as it becomes available.
Let's make this a callaborative effort using the best of the Stude knowledge out there.
Thanks ahead of time...
Jeff 8)

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 09 Oct 2018, 10:04

Let's start with the OLD rulebook....

https://st.hotrod.com/uploads/sites/21/ ... -Class.pdf

It is a downloadeable PDF file, so you can print it, read it, and make notes.

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 09 Oct 2018, 10:14

And here are some important parameters that will affect the build parameters....
(not in any particular order...just transcribed from my notes from the event at the JE Piston dyno room)

* The dyno room air is pretty warm.
* The 'corrected' altitude was pretty high, considering Cleveland is 650+ feet. I heard them say the corrected altitude was like 2700'.
* The dyno 'pull' range is from 3,000 to 6,500 RPM.
* Sunoco 100 octane fuel is mandatory. (All of our 'test' dyno runs will be done with this fuel).
* Amsoil 15w50 race oil is mandatory (supplied. You have to drain your pan and give them your oil filter for inspection).
* Mechanical water pump drive is mandatory (Their dyno caused circulation issues with aftermarket electric water pump drives).
* No dyno room air bell inlet is used. (Strange, but true).

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 09 Oct 2018, 10:23

Some engine particulars.....

* Displacement is at the builders discretion (No min or max, but you must state it and if you win...Verify it via teardown inspection).
* Cylinder head material is a rules question to be determined for the 2019 event. (Right now aluminum heads are allowed)
* Naturally aspirated only. Single or multiple carburetors allowed.
* Intake manifold must be a cast intake that is/was available for sale (No pre-fab sheet metal intakes) Marque mix OK.
* Roller cams accepted.
* Exhaust headers up to builder, but the position of the header terminus is very specific (to allow hook up to exhaust system in dyno room NOTE**)

NOTE** This was an issue in 2018 because of the method the engines had to mouted to the dyno. This is, according to the organizers, probably going to changed before the next event. So the header terminus points might change.

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 09 Oct 2018, 10:35

So....... Looking for ideas.
For the DynoSim guy....
Knowing the above parameters..
Looking for displacement suggestions for a DYNO engine. (Built specifically for this event).

Looking for engine ideas using R1/2 ported cast iron head spec's.
Looking for engine ideas using aluminum R3 (Lionel Stone) ported head spec's.
Header length and tube ideas.
Intake and carb ideas (single, dual, tunnel ram, single plane, etc).
Roller cam spec idea's. Roller rocker spec's (ratio) idea's.

If you were to build this dream DYNO engine... How would you build it?

I know I am opening up to a can of worms, but am trying to seriously tap the knowledge bank here/
Plug some numbers into your computer programs.
Is there a 'sweet spot' for a Stude V8 engine to make max DYNO power?
Stroker crank? Stock stroke crank?
Let's think! Let's share!
Your contribution will be noted on the event build info sheet.

Jeff 8)

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by PackardV8 » 09 Oct 2018, 11:09

Hi, Jeff,

FWIW, I've done some DynoSim builds over the years and found, as to be expected, the intake flow of the Studebaker V8 heads is the limiting factor. A 224" made max horsepower at 8,500 RPMs, a 259" at 7,500 and a 289" at 6,500, but the horsepower was identical.

The first decision point is choosing the head and intake manifold and doing the flow bench work. We have no data on how much better flow, if any, the Lionel Stone aluminum heads might provide. Their main advantage would be they are much easier to grind and weld than iron.

You'd want to do the flow bench work with the intake manifold in place. Fortunately, unlike an Avanti hood, the dyno doesn't care how tall the intake. Reason is, I've seen a 200 CFM port drop to 175 when paired with a low rise Stude intake.

I'd do the intake testing with a bore as large as possible, probably around 93mm, because larger bores allow larger intake valves to breathe better. There are better ring packages available the metric dimensions. Only after the head and intake manifold combination is maxed out on the flow bench can a displacement be selected.

The EMC dyno pull range is from 3,000 to 6,500 RPM, so it's a matter of choosing the displacement which will use the limited intake flow to produce the max area under the curve within that range.

The 3.625" stroke maxes out at 308", so if by some miracle the head/intake flow is increased beyond 200 CFM, a stroker crank might become necessary, but that's TBD.

Once the head and intake flow is known and the displacement/bore/stroke selected, we'd give that to a custom cam guy and have him grind a roller cam to match the combination. Most of the true custom grinders have long lead times, so allow for that.

The short block is just there to hold the horsepower inside, so at the normally aspirated RPM range of the EMC, nothing real trick is required; just precision machine work and assembly.

jack vines

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jay Bradel » 09 Oct 2018, 14:02

Jeff, I have a set of Lionel Stone's Aluminum R3 Heads ported and polished and are out being flow tested as I write. I will give you the results when I get them back. I just called for an update but we are several weeks away.

Jay

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 09 Oct 2018, 16:13

Superb!
"If" aluminum heads are allowed in the class next year (They were allowed this year).. You are on the team! :P
Jeff 8)


Jay Bradel wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 14:02
Jeff, I have a set of Lionel Stone's Aluminum R3 Heads ported and polished and are out being flow tested as I write. I will give you the results when I get them back. I just called for an update but we are several weeks away.

Jay

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by stewed » 09 Oct 2018, 21:08

So...maybe TWO Studebakers next year???

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 10 Oct 2018, 09:07

stewed wrote:
09 Oct 2018, 21:08
So...maybe TWO Studebakers next year???
Very well could be!

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Bill Van Alstyne » 10 Oct 2018, 13:53

Whatever I can be of assistance with, let me know. I have a crusty crank that might be clean upable to make a stroker out of. I also have a '64 P block that is in good shape. Bill

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Mike Van Veghten » 10 Oct 2018, 19:34

Note -
Food for thought -

As talked about by Alan and myself in previous posts, Lionel's heads might not be the best choice to start with, as the intake core plugs were taken off a previously modified head.
That modification was, in my opinion, a very badly modified port and at the time flowed poorly. A lot of weld or epoxy (?) material in the floor would be required on the port floor to make it work up to the "original" design, then modify from there.

The floors (any Stude and most other brands, head) should NOT be lowered except to smooth out casting flash and other casting marks for the best performance. That is VERY little floor lowering.
Two reasons -
1. Requires that the mixture make a sharper turn into the bowl and seat area. BAD idea.
2. Requires way too much extra work to the short turn radius to TRY...to keep the mixture near the floor surface so that again, the mixture does not have to make the sharper than should be required, turn around the corner to the seat area. The short turn is difficult enough to promote flow that starts early enough in the valve movement timing, AND does not hurt the mid lift flow.

Just my personal experience.

Mike

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Jeff Rice » 12 Oct 2018, 10:59

Good repeat info, Mike.
I won't blanket praise or condemnn any head until I see the current state of preparation on it.
A good head porter can do wonders.
We shall see what Jay has to offer, and see how it fits into the 2019 engine plans.

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Re: 2019 Engine Master's Challenge - Studebaker Power Team

Post by Mike Van Veghten » 13 Oct 2018, 11:13

Another venue to show off Stude power.

http://www.competitionplus.com/drag-rac ... pri-events

Mike

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