Adapting A Caddy Intake - Info Needed

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3x2stude
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Adapting A Caddy Intake - Info Needed

Post by 3x2stude » 16 Oct 2019, 23:51

I need to chat with someone that has actually done the deal to make a Caddy intake fit on the Stude and adjusted the "port alignment". I have some technical questions that don't need listed here as I do not want any "I've heard" or "I think" answers. Simply having one will not help, you need to have done the work. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I need data, not speculation or ideas. PM me if you've done it or can hook me up with someone that has.

Thanks,

JK

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Mike Van Veghten
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by Mike Van Veghten » 17 Oct 2019, 01:51

I "almost..." completed this task a few years back. But the manifold owner ran out of money before real welding started. It was a Weiand, dual quad manifold.

Made four new port walls (6061 as I recall), welded and redrilled the attachment holes, removed the outer manifold port walls and prepared the casting and walls for welding to the casting.

The inner ports are...close..., the outer ports are too far off the Stude cylinder head port location to use as is...to me anyway. Many have done the adaption with no welding, but...!

Using a good marine epoxy and relocating the outer port walls, you can make a Cadillac manifold work ok I think, but the work involved is more than the time is worth...to me. If you have the welding, machining equipment and time to spend, go for it. Actually, I hand made the port walls.

Mike

55commander
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by 55commander » 17 Oct 2019, 10:55

I ran a Caddy factory 3X2 for a long time and just moved the mounting holes, I did not epoxy or weld the port opening. It worked OK and I ran it for probably 20,000 mi. in my Model A, before changing to a STU-V.

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PackardV8
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by PackardV8 » 17 Oct 2019, 11:43

3x2stude wrote:
16 Oct 2019, 23:51
I need to chat with someone that has actually done the deal to make a Caddy intake fit on the Stude and adjusted the "port alignment". I have some technical questions that don't need listed here as I do not want any "I've heard" or "I think" answers. Simply having one will not help, you need to have done the work. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I need data, not speculation or ideas. PM me if you've done it or can hook me up with someone that has.

Thanks, JK
55commander wrote:
17 Oct 2019, 10:55
I ran a Caddy factory 3X2 for a long time and just moved the mounting holes, I did not epoxy or weld the port opening. It worked OK and I ran it for probably 20,000 mi. in my Model A, before changing to a STU-V.
"Moved the mounting holes . . . . Worked OK" is good enough for some applications. We've lost count of the number of Stude owners who are living happily ever after with simply slotting the Cad intake bolt holes.

The key question is:
adjusted port alignment
The inner ports are...close..., the outer ports are too far off the Stude cylinder head port location to use as is...to me anyway. Many have done the adaption with no welding, but...!
However, knowing Mike, it would make him crazy every time he looked at one, remembering how far off the port match.

To make a Cadillac intake actually align with the Studebaker intake ports first requires extensive porting of the Studebaker heads, as the Cadillac ports are larger.

Mike describes leaving the manifold in one piece and adding to the ends of the ports. Another method is to cut the intake into three parts if it's a 3x2, or in half if it's a 2x4, the cut edges beveled for weld penetration, clamped to the finished Studebaker long block and the pieces aligned to the Stude head. Once port alignment has been verified with a flexible bore scope, a good aluminum welder will spend several hours making the welds. Then, it must be pressure tested and the welds ground smooth for appearance.

Having done a couple of these welded conversions, Jeff Rice's modified Mopar intakes or the adapters for SBC intakes are a bargain by comparison.

jack vnes

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PackardV8
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by PackardV8 » 17 Oct 2019, 11:52

PackardV8 wrote:
17 Oct 2019, 11:43
3x2stude wrote:
16 Oct 2019, 23:51
I need to chat with someone that has actually done the deal to make a Caddy intake fit on the Stude and adjusted the "port alignment". I have some technical questions that don't need listed here as I do not want any "I've heard" or "I think" answers. Simply having one will not help, you need to have done the work. I'm not trying to be a jerk but I need data, not speculation or ideas. PM me if you've done it or can hook me up with someone that has.

Thanks, JK
55commander wrote:
17 Oct 2019, 10:55
I ran a Caddy factory 3X2 for a long time and just moved the mounting holes, I did not epoxy or weld the port opening. It worked OK and I ran it for probably 20,000 mi. in my Model A, before changing to a STU-V.
"Moved the mounting holes . . . . Worked OK" is good enough for some applications. We've lost count of the number of Stude owners who are living happily ever after with simply slotting the Cad intake bolt holes.

The key question is:
adjusted port alignment
The inner ports are...close..., the outer ports are too far off the Stude cylinder head port location to use as is...to me anyway. Many have done the adaption with no welding, but...!
However, knowing Mike, it would make him crazy every time he looked at one, remembering how far off the port match.

To make a Cadillac intake actually align with the Studebaker intake ports first requires extensive porting of the Studebaker heads, as the Cadillac ports are larger.

Mike describes leaving the manifold in one piece and adding to the ends of the ports. Another method is to cut the intake into three parts if it's a 3x2, or in half if it's a 2x4, the cut edges beveled for weld penetration, clamped to the finished Studebaker long block and the pieces aligned to the Stude head. Once port alignment has been verified with a flexible bore scope, a good aluminum welder will spend several hours making the welds. Then, it must be pressure tested and the welds ground smooth for appearance.

Having done a couple of these welded conversions, Jeff Rice's modified Mopar intakes or the adapters for SBC intakes are a bargain by comparison.

jack vines

P.S. - I've got an OEM iron '56 Eldorado 2x4 intake and carbs gathering dust. Someday soon I'll offer it to someone who's going to sign a waiver understanding and accepting "move the mounting holes and it will work OK." Since it's cast iron, don't even think about cutting and welding.

jv

3x2stude
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by 3x2stude » 17 Oct 2019, 21:36

OK, let me explain why I asked the question. I make adapters to put the Chevy intakes on the Stude, right? Well it makes sense to tweak them to adapt the SBC to the Caddy. My 3D guy says he can change the Stude side to Caddy in less than an hour. I am well aware of what needs done to adapt a Caddy to a Stude in theory but wanted some input on the bolt patterns more than the ports. The adapters will align the ports perfectly if I get the bolt shift correct. One would assume the Caddy pattern has the same offset front to rear as the Stude. I need to know exactly. I axe murdered a cracked Caddy intake so I can see in the ports. I glued gaskets to the intake aligned with oversized pins in the bolt holes so the gaskets are dead on in their locations on the intake. At first glance it appears the front / rear offset is the same. I do notice an slight shift outward though so that is why I asked for input. An original Caddy adapted to the Stude takes some grinding and tweaking to make it fit and an a$$ load of work to make it perform. Nobody is going to want to tinker with my adapters to make them fit so I need to get 'em perfect. I have attached some photos from tonight's research. By "eyeball" the front / rear offset appears to be the same or close enough for the first plastic 3D printing. The side-to-side alignment needs adjusted. Based on my high tech tape and fine line "Sharpie" marks it appears the engine side needs shifted outboard 3/32. It will be a good starting point. Thanks for everyone's input. I have a retired mechanic friend that will go to a nearby yard that has several old Caddy's to acquire a lab rat test bed. I know this is technically not a "Studebaker Powered" post but I need input and I thought anyone dreaming of building a "Studillac" clone would be interested.

JK
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Mike Van Veghten
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by Mike Van Veghten » 18 Oct 2019, 01:39

I don't recall exactly, but the bolt pattern would be a pain in the butt for you in making an adapter.
I don't recall exactly, but the Cad pattern vs. the Stude pattern center-line is only 1/2 or 3/4 a hole off of each other. This is the outside pattern. No idea about the inner hole pattern.

I can think of a couple of ways, but they would not be cheap for you or easy for the end user...because...they are so close in location to each other. And neither of what I can think of would be Avanti hood height friendly..!

I can measure the center hole pattern for you in both manifolds, but the only Cad manifold I have is the one I described above and the outer holes were moved a long time ago.
I'll check them both tomorrow.

Mike

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Jeff Rice
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by Jeff Rice » 18 Oct 2019, 22:59

Pic's for clarity and conversation...

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3x2stude
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by 3x2stude » 18 Oct 2019, 23:33

Mike,

You are right on the issues with the difference in bolt pattern between the Stude and Caddy. Only one of the inboard bolts is in the "danger zone". I will have it 3D modeled and see. You have a set of my adapters so you know what I am talking about. I can do two things to help the interference. First downsize the diameter of the counterbore of the hole holding the adapter to the head on that bolt. The second would be downsize the thread insert from a 3/8 to 5/16 for the one fastener. I do not want to delete the stainless inserts to maintain durability, that would be a last resort. So we'll model it and go from there. Thanks for the info.

JK

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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by 3x2stude » 19 Oct 2019, 00:02

For all,

This discussion is to define the difference between adapting a Chevy small bock intake to a Stude vs. the Caddy, not adapting the Caddy to the Stude. I should have titled it different. All good information received though and thanks to all. I had hoped for some detailed dimensional numbers instead of just, "slot the hole". Any additional history would be welcomed.

JK

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Mike Van Veghten
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Itake Info Needed

Post by Mike Van Veghten » 19 Oct 2019, 01:51

Jon -

This discussion is to define the difference between adapting a Chevy small bock intake to a Stude vs. the Caddy, not adapting the Caddy to the Stude.

I don't understand, you've already had the Chevy to Stude adapters manufactured..!?

Mike

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Re: Adapting A Caddy Intake - Info Needed

Post by 3x2stude » 19 Oct 2019, 08:27

I want to make the same adapter for the Caddy. SBC intake on a Cadillac. It will be a challenge but I will at least model it up and see how close the interferences are.

JK

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Mike Van Veghten
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Intake - Info Needed

Post by Mike Van Veghten » 19 Oct 2019, 11:35

Ah...I see said the blind man..!
Thanks.

Mike

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PackardV8
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Re: Adapting A Caddy Intake - Info Needed

Post by PackardV8 » 19 Oct 2019, 12:02

3x2stude wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 08:27
This discussion is to define the difference between adapting a Chevy small bock intake to a Stude vs. the Caddy, not adapting the Caddy to the Stude. I should have titled it different. All good information received though and thanks to all. I had hoped for some detailed dimensional numbers instead of just, "slot the hole".

I want to make the same adapter for the Caddy. SBC intake on a Cadillac. It will be a challenge but I will at least model it up and see how close the interferences are. JK
The previous discussions were detailing how moving dimensions in metal is difficult. Moving them in programming is easy. If the CNC program already exists for the SBC to Stude, copying it and modifying it for the Cadillac will be cake. Just use a Cadillac intake manifold gasket for reference.

jack vines

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Re: Adapting A Caddy Intake - Info Needed

Post by Jessie J. » 20 Oct 2019, 21:38

3x2stude wrote:
19 Oct 2019, 08:27
I want to make the same adapter for the Caddy. SBC intake on a Cadillac.

JK
I own a '62 Caddy 390, and I am interested.

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